In this video interview, Drew Hart discusses his recent book, Trouble I’ve Seen: Changing the Way the Church Views Racism, and some of the topics he writes about within. He specifically addresses the history of racism in the U.S., the American church’s participation in that racism, the popular conception of a “whitened Jesus,” and the subversive nature of the kingdom of God.

“Anytime we see Jesus identify with the dominants and the powerful and the rulers of this world, with Caesar and Herod and Pilate … this is a whitened Jesus.”

Drew also calls believers to not trust our own intuitions. Rather, we should let our intuitions be shaped by those on the underside of society, for those at the bottom share more closely the vantage point of our crucified Christ. And the vantage point of Christ on the cross, Hart says, is far better than the vantage point of Caesar.